(Ep 11) Writer and Fighter: Andrea Tang

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Welcome to Fighters Drinking Coffee. We are here today with Andrea Tsang.

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She is an author, the host of the BJJ Mental Vodels podcast, and a BJJ competitor.

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She's been very active this year, too, in the competition scene. So, Andrea, say hello.

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Hello. Great to be here with you guys. Hello. Hello.

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Hello. Yeah, so, I guess.

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Let's start on the end of my list there. Let's start with the kind of competition

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stuff, what you've got coming up or looking forward to this year,

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and then we'll kind of go from there.

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Yeah, yeah, no. Well, like we were just talking about before we started recording,

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I'm looking at a potential super fight matchup in a couple of weeks where I'll

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hopefully be competing alongside my co-chair, Scott Vance, and my teammate Shane,

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who's previously been on the podcast.

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And I'm also looking toward the IBJJF Nogi season, so I'm hoping to hit the

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majors this year at PANS.

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Probably not Eros this time around, though. That was a fun little adventure,

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but definitely PANS and Worlds are high on my priority list.

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And I'd like to look at some ADCC opens as well, because I did that one set

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once and I really enjoyed it. So I'd like to get a little more experience there.

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Awesome. Yeah, I was looking at that one and I was wondering,

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your home state in, I think, October?

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Oh, Kentucky, yeah. ADCC opens? Oh, Louisville. Louisville, yeah.

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You know, fun fact about Kentucky.

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I was talking about this with my family recently.

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Family's from Kentucky. I'm from Kentucky. In Kentucky, people judge their awareness

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of your regional knowledge by how you say the word, how you say the name of

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the city, Louisville, which is the way the world,

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the entire world calls it Louisville.

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And that is a native Kentucky boy called it. They say like Louisville or Louisville.

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Oh, okay. Louisville, it like gets like hiccified significantly.

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I always heard it was Louisville. Anyway, you know, yeah, and people say that.

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People say Louisville, but I think I've decided to join the rest of the world.

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It's Louisville. Like a slugger? Yeah, well, yeah. I guess that's how Louisville works.

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Louisville, a civilized way to speak would be Louisville.

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But you want to fit in, you got to kind of slug. They'll know.

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They'll know me like, oh, yeah, all right, you're not from here.

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And this will be nice to you because I'm Southerners, by the way.

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Go to susunior tourist louisville louis louisville

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and or louisville is a bit more like midwest right it becomes less like there's

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less like southern sharn to it it's just like it's like mongrel cities yeah

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i'll hate on it it's actually a pretty cool city to be honest with you but i

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did see that and that's interesting they're going to look to louisville.

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Hmm maybe we'll go maybe we'll go to louisville that could be a special dma

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field trip it would Yeah, a little hometown, what do you call it? Pilgrimage?

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Yeah. Something like that? Better than New Jersey. I don't know.

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I like New Jersey. She's from New Jersey.

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I don't know. A lot of TMAs from New Jersey. There's me. There's Charles, one of the owners.

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There's Mark. There's Mark. There's multiple Marks from New Jersey.

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We're overrun by Jersey folks. We are. We are. And that one's in Atlantic City.

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Yeah. I kind of like it. Yeah. That's the one that I've done before.

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I did that one with Trey. We had a good time there. Right.

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It was fun. Yeah. Yeah, it was IBJJF open in New Jersey is in a weird part.

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It's in Jersey City, though, wasn't it?

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No, it was not. Do you remember where it was? I haven't competed there,

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but I have some friends at Princeton BJJ who have done it.

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And yeah, apparently it's just like nowhere's built.

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Like the venue is just like in the middle of nothing.

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Right. It's got a big state. Like it's easy to get it. It's a tiny little state.

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Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if they actually do anything in that location,

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aside from host occasional jiu-jitsu competitions.

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It seems like everyone in Arlington slash DC is from Jersey.

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And then these 45% of the people from here are Jersey natives.

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They're like punching them. There's a bunch of us. They're producing a lot of humans. Yeah.

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Somehow they export a lot of people.

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We do all end up fleeing the state, so. Maybe that's saying something.

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Maybe that's saying something. So, okay, so yeah, I received that ADCC.

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That's one rule set. You know IBJJF rule set really well. And super fights.

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What do you like the most?

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I mean, IBJJF is probably the one that I'm most used to, and I spend the most time training it.

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Like, I've gotten just, like, in the habit of counting the points in my head.

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Because it also informs not just IBJJF itself, but I think, like,

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most local tournaments where you hop in to get some action to train up for maybe a bigger event.

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Like they tend to default to the IDJJF scoring system.

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So I think it's the one that I'm most accustomed to. But I don't know,

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man. I had a lot of fun doing ADCC Atlantic City.

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Like it was newer to me. It definitely took some getting used to.

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But I liked that I could be a little bit more open with my game in some ways.

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Like I do think that I fall into the trap sometimes of when I'm prepping for

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the big IDJJF majors of getting so focused on scoring that, like,

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I play this very tight, um,

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very- I mean, it's not necessarily a bad game, right, to play this very tight,

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controlled game, but I'm not really willing to open up and experiment that much.

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Like, I know it works for me, and that's what I do.

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Whereas, I think I can be a little bit more dynamic in ADC's evil set,

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because the first app, there's no points, and you can kind of- you can kind

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of experiment a little bit more, so.

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Um, yeah, I don't know. I think there are benefits and drawbacks to each of

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them, but yeah, yeah, no, I just like getting the variety in.

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Yeah, the ADCC scoring is, it's, it's like tough to score even when the points kick in.

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It is, it is. So they make it, they, they want, they, they want you to submit

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people. They do. And I like that. I like that it pushes for that.

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Um, I like that there are more submissions that are legal also because I have

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been, I, I like, I, I've been kind of enjoying picking up the leg lock game. It's still new to me.

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I defer to both of you guys. You have both kind of been mentors in that area.

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But it's something that I've been having a lot of fun with. And that's,

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I think, less of a factor in my particular role set IVJJ, since I'm still at Purple Belt.

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And I like that you kind of get an earlier taste with it, with ADCC and some of the other role sets.

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So it kind of opens things up a little bit more. I like that ADCC also birdies

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wrestlers to play their A game. So that can be a lot of fun as well.

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Most people aren't aware, but ADCC, when it first was founded,

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it was supposed to be like the UFC of grappling.

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So they made the rule set intentionally a little like, I'll just say different for simplicity's sake.

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But they set it up so that it's supposed to be the best grappler with whatever

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style or hybrid of styles they want to leverage can come in and win in different ways.

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And they, as already stated, they incentivize the submission.

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But like you said, if a wrestler comes in, there's, to my knowledge,

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sort of like catch wrestling, which I don't think as a sport is that common

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these days is probably something to do with it.

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I think it's had like a minor resurgence lately.

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He likes catch wrestling. I like that. I love it.

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But yeah, I think it's had like a little bit of a resurgence lately,

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but the rules that an ADCC is a little bit closer.

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Mine is like, obviously you can't pin, but you don't tap out and catch wrestling.

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You pin yourself, but well, I guess you can also tap out, but the idea is you

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can use the submission to create the pin.

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And if you break something along the way, you don't make a deal.

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So you should have tapped out. But so, yeah, I mean, it definitely has like

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more of that, like you're saying, wrestling, penalizing the guard pole.

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And your pass or your takedown doesn't count until you've got the shoulders

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on the mat, like those little nuances.

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It changes the way the game is played.

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Absolutely. Yeah, no, I think when I did my first ADCC competition,

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I did end up in overtime in my final match.

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And that girl, I think you remember because you were cornering me remotely over the phone.

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She was like a state champion wrestler and an MMA fighter. So she had a nasty takedown game.

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And in over titles for ADCC, you can't really pull guard.

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You have to stand with the person unless you want to eat that penalty.

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So I was like, all right, I guess I am just going to wrestle this state champion

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and we'll see what happens.

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And we'll get back to creating some really fun scrabbles.

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It was my first time in competition being run onto the concrete and having to continue.

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That happened a second time in the super fight that I did this past year.

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It won't be the last time.

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In the 80s, you see Louisville or Oklahoma or whatever. I'm sure it'll happen again.

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Yeah, it will. So, you get like carpet burns or something. Yeah.

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They always seem like they end up in like some hotel. So, we got Hilton Ballery.

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Yeah. Right, right. Just smash into the chairs.

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There's like a crowd of people you'll roll on top of them. Right.

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You'll probably crash into some plastic folding chairs in the process.

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You will. You will. Well, the resets are super interesting. This is something

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that you've probably heard me talk about with new people.

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When explaining how competitions are just competitions.

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Right. It's not like training where we can, we're going to bump into someone

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and we'll just reset ourselves.

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The resets are like an interesting factor in any competitive environment you're in.

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It's a lot more, we'll say civilized, I suppose, I guess.

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Civilized and savage is the spectrum.

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Civilized being, I guess, a IBJF perhaps, ADCC being like, no man, go, go, go, go.

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We'll let you know and you can stop. Right. Yeah. No, because I remember when

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we we hit like the ballroom floor in that venue and like train was in my corner was like, don't stop.

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The ref hasn't called for you to reset you yet. You have to keep on moving.

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Let's go to this. Yeah. So I was like, all right, I guess I can't settle here.

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Like I have to I have to stay on tops.

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Think like they're like, I believe the terms and conditions are that if the

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action continues, they're just going to let you go. Right.

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Yeah. So it's sort of like up to you and the other person like are we done fighting on the concrete?

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She was not done fighting. So I was like okay you're not done fighting I guess

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I'm not done fighting either.

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Or the crowd stops you. The crowd can Yeah. And they will eventually If you

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roll on to like five of the people the ref would be like alright. Right.

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That's enough. You've broken the barriers you've taken out the table like let's

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But they want a little bit of that right?

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And you guys have probably all seen like highlight reels of dudes who just keep

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banging it out wherever they are and a little bit of that is like exciting stuff. It's all I do. Yeah.

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Did he slam escape into the table? I've seen that. Yeah, there's a lot of it.

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Oh, that's got vital on Instagram. Yeah.

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Okay, so then superfights. Do you like the stage? I do.

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It took some getting used to. I remember my first time doing a superfight.

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I was like a brand new purple belt.

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It was a really cool, it was Copa Elite. Shout out to Dimitri,

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who I think puts on a fantastic show with the Copa Elite series.

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But it was my first time doing a superfight. I think it was my second time ever

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competing at purple belt against like a grappler that I really admired.

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Who had, you know, been, she was a little bit more experienced.

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And I think she had competed a fair bit more at that ride than I had.

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But it was less, I think, like the experience difference that got into my head

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and more like the fact that it was like I felt like I was experiencing stage

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fright for the first time,

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which was interesting to me because I think in in tournaments,

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I get nerves. Right. I'm like, OK, I want to go out.

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I want to be able to do my thing like like it's normal to kind of feel that adrenaline dump.

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But I've never really been worried about like, oh, God, there's there's a crowd watching.

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And like they're watching like the two adult black belts, like two mats over

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who are who are like creating a highlight reel for flow grappling.

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Like no one really cares about my mat.

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I care about my mat. My corner cares about my mat. But that's about it.

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Versus the superfights like people have paid for tickets to come see this.

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And so there is there is that pressure not only of like I want to perform well

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against this other athlete. I want to, I want to put on, I want to,

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you know, show that I can do good jujitsu.

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I want to put what I've been practicing into play. I want to win, ideally.

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But there's also that added, I think, factor, that piece of pressure that's

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like, I also want to give the audience what they're paying for.

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Like, I don't want to be boring.

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I don't want to look stupid in front of like all of these people.

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I want to be, I want to be entertaining. I want to be interesting as well.

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So there's, I think, just like a little bit more pressure.

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There's a few more factors. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I think like,

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so that first time that kind of caught me by surprise because I was like,

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why am I nervous in like a different way from how I'm usually nervous?

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And then my second time doing Copa Elite, I was like sort of ready for like

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the stage fright to hit alongside the normal jiu-jitsu jitter.

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So I was like, okay, I know what this is now. All right.

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So I think my mind is a bit more at ease and I really liked it.

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I had a lot of fun doing that fight.

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Do you think the like crowd pressure caused a change in your game too?

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Do you think that that first one, when you went out there, that changed the

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way that you were planning on approaching it just because you felt like it was

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a different atmosphere, right?

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I think a little bit, yeah. Yeah, no, for sure, for sure.

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Yeah, I think there's a little bit more incentive to take risks,

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I think, when you're like, because you've been out there as well,

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like in front of the crowd.

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You're like, okay, I don't want to just stall and close guard forever.

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I have to make something happen. Nobody wants to watch me stall with those guards. So I.

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Might be a little bit more willing to kind of push the pace and open up and

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maybe take a few more... I try to take intelligent risks still because I don't

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want to do something that's going to compromise my game entirely.

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But I feel like I have to be a little bit more willing to put myself out there

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and play maybe a more aggressive game than I normally would.

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Because again, I kind of I want to make sure the audience is getting what they came for.

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So and, you know, there is also still like a ref who's handing out penalties

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for stalling as well. So you also don't want to you don't want to eat those

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negatives either. So I was looking for those in my,

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Yeah, that was interesting. Yeah. Mike was like stuck with a beard holding on to him.

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Oh, yeah. And guard. And I told him you should have slammed him.

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Demetri probably wouldn't have. I don't think he wants that. No, it's not his ADC.

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Fight to win kind of likes slams, by the way. Okay. Just by the way.

00:14:45.104 --> 00:14:47.764
All right. So slams are in the rule set for fight to win. They were.

00:14:47.964 --> 00:14:50.404
I'll check. Okay. All right. That's good to know. Once upon a time.

00:14:50.624 --> 00:14:53.144
No, no, no. Once upon a time, they were like, it was like a feature.

00:14:53.284 --> 00:14:54.124
He said, yo, we'll let you slam.

00:14:54.484 --> 00:14:58.904
Yeah. So he was like, it's like a little bit of that, like, same psychology as ADCC. Yeah.

00:14:59.504 --> 00:15:02.964
There were, the last one, the one that was just in Pittsburgh,

00:15:03.264 --> 00:15:05.224
there were definitely slams in Pittsburgh. Okay.

00:15:05.784 --> 00:15:11.624
But it might be like the new ADCC rule set where you can slam to do some mission escapes.

00:15:12.004 --> 00:15:13.944
Okay. But not to just slam through.

00:15:14.444 --> 00:15:17.204
Not just to slam. I think they just changed that, too.

00:15:17.564 --> 00:15:22.064
Like, it's just for escaping submissions, at least for ADCC. We'll double check.

00:15:22.364 --> 00:15:25.884
Right. So you have to wait for them to like look for a guillotine and be like,

00:15:25.984 --> 00:15:27.484
okay, now I can slam you out of this.

00:15:27.564 --> 00:15:32.064
When I saw the guy like, he got picked up in guard and he went for like a Nogi

00:15:32.064 --> 00:15:33.844
Ezekiel and the guy just slanted him.

00:15:34.024 --> 00:15:37.304
And they're like, yeah, he didn't just try to do Ezekiel. Yeah, same.

00:15:38.904 --> 00:15:42.404
Note to self. Yeah. Don't do Nogi Ezekiel.

00:15:43.764 --> 00:15:47.964
Waiter lifted above the ground. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:48.024 --> 00:15:49.864
All that stuff. All the other factors.

00:15:50.544 --> 00:15:56.544
It gets easier. Yeah. It gets easier. There's always some mental people.

00:15:56.724 --> 00:15:58.964
One of the people who said this and they call them intrusive thoughts these

00:15:58.964 --> 00:16:01.344
days. Is that what they call them? I feel like that's, that words need to throw.

00:16:02.444 --> 00:16:05.924
The intrusive thoughts of all the, uh, external thoughts.

00:16:07.554 --> 00:16:10.254
Pressures that you can allow in to your

00:16:10.254 --> 00:16:13.714
to your brain can influence things for sure i

00:16:13.714 --> 00:16:16.894
think if you just go out there and you're like i just gotta beat this lady yeah that's

00:16:16.894 --> 00:16:20.394
gonna beat this dude whatever which i think was more hunt for sure and i think

00:16:20.394 --> 00:16:24.034
that was more of my mindset the second time around or it's like okay i i'm here

00:16:24.034 --> 00:16:28.614
to win like yeah like and and i think i think i adopted the mentality which

00:16:28.614 --> 00:16:32.134
i think was more productive of like if i go out there and i play my game and

00:16:32.134 --> 00:16:34.494
I do what I know I can do, I do what I do in training,

00:16:34.794 --> 00:16:36.794
and I fight, like, I fight to win.

00:16:36.994 --> 00:16:39.534
I look for the W.

00:16:40.014 --> 00:16:44.574
Like, it will be entertaining. Like, I know that that will be something that's

00:16:44.574 --> 00:16:47.674
exciting, and it will kind of kill those two birds with one stone,

00:16:48.014 --> 00:16:50.354
rather than, like, separating it out in my head and being like,

00:16:50.434 --> 00:16:54.134
oh, is this going to, like, is the audience going to want to see this?

00:16:54.174 --> 00:16:58.014
Like, but will I win if I do this? Am I going to give up points if I do this other thing?

00:16:58.634 --> 00:17:02.534
Just, like, not overthinking it and just streamlining that thought process it

00:17:02.534 --> 00:17:07.294
all have to be does it be flashy moves right that but if you're just pushing

00:17:07.294 --> 00:17:11.994
pace yeah you know act looking like you're actively trying to,

00:17:12.714 --> 00:17:19.854
to win fight to win yeah it's a good name yeah it's very very good direct but

00:17:19.854 --> 00:17:24.534
yeah you're absolutely right like you can this was something we talked about

00:17:24.534 --> 00:17:30.214
a couple episodes ago it was like you can be exciting and still be smart yeah.

00:17:30.954 --> 00:17:36.774
Definitely that's the challenge yep but it's like you said it ends up you simplifying

00:17:36.774 --> 00:17:39.234
you just go out there kill this person.

00:17:41.454 --> 00:17:48.454
That's the job pick a limb try to take it yeah right right five six seven minutes

00:17:48.454 --> 00:17:53.134
whatever it is just do it yeah I don't see a five six seven options five six.

00:17:56.354 --> 00:17:59.514
Yeah i'll leave it at that no no yeah well whatever

00:17:59.514 --> 00:18:02.734
you do what you gotta do to win yeah i mean credit to my opponent like

00:18:02.734 --> 00:18:05.614
she also like came in hot when we when we like locked

00:18:05.614 --> 00:18:08.454
hands i was like oh okay she's she's kind of i could tell she kind

00:18:08.454 --> 00:18:11.394
of had the same mentality i did and i think when both people take

00:18:11.394 --> 00:18:14.414
that approach where they both really want to come out aggressively

00:18:14.414 --> 00:18:17.574
and they're both hungry for that win um i

00:18:17.574 --> 00:18:20.334
think it just intrinsically ends up being like fun to

00:18:20.334 --> 00:18:23.414
watch because you can tell like they're really hungry for

00:18:23.414 --> 00:18:26.074
it i had just because you were right after me i had just

00:18:26.074 --> 00:18:30.934
gotten back into the um back into the like locker room the green room green

00:18:30.934 --> 00:18:35.554
room yeah and like everybody was watching your match yeah so they were they

00:18:35.554 --> 00:18:39.674
were locked in on it yeah yeah you guys had an exciting match yeah no it was

00:18:39.674 --> 00:18:44.914
a lot of fun but yeah huge shout out to my opponent like she she also definitely brought the fire so oh,

00:18:45.466 --> 00:18:51.526
Let's talk about writing. All right. Yes. Yeah. So like what you're doing,

00:18:51.606 --> 00:18:53.366
it's young adult novels, correct? I do.

00:18:53.586 --> 00:19:00.706
Yeah. So my primary focus is on novels, specifically genre novels. So I write primarily.

00:19:00.906 --> 00:19:05.206
My home publisher right now is Penguin Random House. I mostly write for an imprint pub.

00:19:05.566 --> 00:19:07.926
Formerly Razorville, they've now been merged into Putnam.

00:19:08.426 --> 00:19:10.986
And they produce young adult literature.

00:19:11.646 --> 00:19:16.246
I'm a big old science fiction and fantasy geek. So that is the sub-genre that

00:19:16.246 --> 00:19:19.266
I'm in. So that's what all of my books have been so far.

00:19:20.666 --> 00:19:24.906
I'm definitely open to kind of like expanding my portfolio, so to speak,

00:19:25.226 --> 00:19:30.166
and writing for other age groups. I don't know that I'll necessarily jump genres.

00:19:30.286 --> 00:19:32.406
I think I'm pretty happy doing speculative fiction.

00:19:33.446 --> 00:19:37.886
But, you know, I've talked to my agent before about like writing either older or younger as well.

00:19:38.366 --> 00:19:41.366
So that could be really exciting. But the imprint I'm with right now is very

00:19:41.366 --> 00:19:46.286
focused on teen literature. So that is what I've been doing since 2018 or so.

00:19:46.446 --> 00:19:50.326
So that's what I do when I'm not getting beat up by you guys on the maths.

00:19:50.946 --> 00:19:54.046
I definitely read more when I was a teen than I do now.

00:19:54.531 --> 00:20:02.411
I mean, it's probably a pretty good audience. Yeah, it's a fun age group to write for.

00:20:02.591 --> 00:20:05.391
I think especially because I tend to focus on like upper YA,

00:20:05.551 --> 00:20:06.731
which is like older teenagers.

00:20:07.351 --> 00:20:10.831
And that ends up being kind of a crossover category because you're essentially

00:20:10.831 --> 00:20:15.451
writing a book that is like teen friendly and like accessible to high schoolers.

00:20:15.511 --> 00:20:19.571
But because they are on like the older end of like kid lit or like children's

00:20:19.571 --> 00:20:22.451
literature, like a lot of adults will pick up those books, too,

00:20:22.591 --> 00:20:24.391
because like it's like, OK, this.

00:20:24.531 --> 00:20:28.391
This is something that could be a crossover title where it's like,

00:20:28.491 --> 00:20:32.591
okay, it's accessible to teens, but this could have easily sold to like an adult in print as well.

00:20:32.651 --> 00:20:35.591
So you will kind of end up getting the best of both worlds and courting both

00:20:35.591 --> 00:20:39.331
audiences, which I think can be really exciting as a writer.

00:20:39.791 --> 00:20:42.811
Do you have to have like a process, like a disciplined process,

00:20:43.251 --> 00:20:46.671
like you, for being a functional professional writer?

00:20:46.911 --> 00:20:50.811
More and more so. I think like before I like, quote, quote, like turned pro,

00:20:50.931 --> 00:20:55.231
so to speak, and like writing was still technically a hobby rather than a source of income.

00:20:55.671 --> 00:21:01.211
I was a lot, I mean, I imposed discipline on myself because I did have the goal

00:21:01.211 --> 00:21:06.011
of eventually wanting to sell my work, but like I could afford to be a lot more

00:21:06.011 --> 00:21:09.491
loosey-goosey with things like deadlines and getting edits done and things,

00:21:09.551 --> 00:21:13.091
because I wasn't really writing for anyone other than myself and like an eventual

00:21:13.091 --> 00:21:14.351
portfolio that I'd want to build,

00:21:14.451 --> 00:21:18.091
but there was no deadline on that, right? It's like, okay, I'll get to it when I get to it.

00:21:18.291 --> 00:21:21.191
And in the meanwhile, I have my day job. I have all these other things that I'm doing.

00:21:21.191 --> 00:21:26.951
But after I signed with an agent and she sold my first book and I was suddenly

00:21:26.951 --> 00:21:33.331
on contracts and deadlines, I was answerable to this whole macrocosm of an organization

00:21:33.331 --> 00:21:34.291
that is... The commerce.

00:21:34.651 --> 00:21:36.871
Yeah, the traditional publishing world.

00:21:37.291 --> 00:21:40.471
I can't really speak to what it's... Because there are different ways to be

00:21:40.471 --> 00:21:41.731
a professional writer these days.

00:21:42.171 --> 00:21:46.931
A lot of indie writers are very successful self-publishing and doing all of

00:21:46.931 --> 00:21:48.191
that on their own, and I'm sure...

00:21:48.743 --> 00:21:53.083
In that case, like, you maybe have to be a little bit more internally motivated.

00:21:53.263 --> 00:21:56.123
But as a traditionally published job for who works for the Big Five house,

00:21:56.283 --> 00:22:00.983
I am very much beholden to penguins, lawyers and contracts and things.

00:22:01.163 --> 00:22:05.283
So there are very material consequences to not getting things done at a certain

00:22:05.283 --> 00:22:07.603
point and turning things in on time.

00:22:07.723 --> 00:22:10.363
And, of course, like, deadlines are negotiable. You can push things around the

00:22:10.363 --> 00:22:13.283
same way you would with, like, deliverables and a normal day job.

00:22:13.283 --> 00:22:16.683
But you know it's it's it's not just it's

00:22:16.683 --> 00:22:19.443
not just you creating the work now you

00:22:19.443 --> 00:22:22.163
you know you're you're working with your editors you're working with your

00:22:22.163 --> 00:22:24.843
publicist you're working with your agent um even though

00:22:24.843 --> 00:22:27.723
you are the one creating the product and it's your name on the cover

00:22:27.723 --> 00:22:31.083
um it is i think traditional publishing

00:22:31.083 --> 00:22:33.823
at least is still very much like a team sport in a

00:22:33.823 --> 00:22:37.823
way that i had kind of getting used to so like similar to like manufactured

00:22:37.823 --> 00:22:42.903
or something you're they can't do their job until you provide them exactly yeah

00:22:42.903 --> 00:22:46.843
so it does the whole process right my editor can't give me right my red lines

00:22:46.843 --> 00:22:51.963
unless i give her like something to edit yeah so yeah it's not just your.

00:22:52.443 --> 00:22:55.383
If you don't have it on time it doesn't just mean like that little

00:22:55.383 --> 00:22:58.943
bit of extra time just push pushes the yes yeah

00:22:58.943 --> 00:23:01.743
exactly exactly um do you

00:23:01.743 --> 00:23:04.463
think that and we talked a little bit about process do you think that

00:23:04.463 --> 00:23:07.963
there's some crossover and like your the your

00:23:07.963 --> 00:23:11.883
process for writing and kind of like your preparation process

00:23:11.883 --> 00:23:14.883
for jiu-jitsu like when you're doing like writing a

00:23:14.883 --> 00:23:17.683
book versus preparing for getting ready for

00:23:17.683 --> 00:23:21.703
a match right like yeah yeah no i think so i think i've actually talked about

00:23:21.703 --> 00:23:26.663
this before where that that mindset that very like discipline driven mindset

00:23:26.663 --> 00:23:31.843
that you have to adopt is similar at least for me um because we've all had like

00:23:31.843 --> 00:23:34.903
off days in training right where it's like you just don't want to do it your

00:23:34.903 --> 00:23:36.923
body is tired your joints hurt like,

00:23:37.382 --> 00:23:39.602
You lifted heavy the other day, what have you. And you're just like,

00:23:39.682 --> 00:23:42.882
I don't look like I'm just not on my game. I'm like a beat behind like all of

00:23:42.882 --> 00:23:45.202
my training partners today. I feel bad about my jiu-jitsu.

00:23:45.642 --> 00:23:48.402
But like we don't skip training, right? We still show up.

00:23:48.522 --> 00:23:50.942
We're like, OK, I said I told coach I would be at this practice.

00:23:51.062 --> 00:23:54.182
I'm going to be at this practice because I'm competing in like two weeks from

00:23:54.182 --> 00:23:55.602
now and I just can't afford to miss it.

00:23:55.742 --> 00:24:00.022
And it's kind of the same way with writing. Like before, I think like when you

00:24:00.022 --> 00:24:04.842
are primarily like, I guess, like a hobbyist who's not looking to make a profit

00:24:04.842 --> 00:24:07.422
off of your work and you're not working with a publisher.

00:24:09.382 --> 00:24:12.362
You're kind of just doing it for fun, you can do it for fun,

00:24:12.442 --> 00:24:13.562
right? There's nothing wrong with that.

00:24:13.902 --> 00:24:20.242
But if you are professionalizing and your goal is to eventually put out a product

00:24:20.242 --> 00:24:24.342
that people are going to buy and sell, you are going to have days where you

00:24:24.342 --> 00:24:25.222
don't want to do the work.

00:24:25.222 --> 00:24:29.282
You don't feel good. You feel like everything that you're writing is crap and

00:24:29.282 --> 00:24:33.022
you're going to have to do it anyway because you're on deadline and you have to turn something in.

00:24:33.742 --> 00:24:36.642
Maybe you're not going to turn in like the best possible work you

00:24:36.642 --> 00:24:39.482
could but turning in something is better than turning in nothing just like

00:24:39.482 --> 00:24:42.642
showing up to practice and having kind of a crummy practice some

00:24:42.642 --> 00:24:45.742
days is better than just being like oh i'm just not gonna go and

00:24:45.742 --> 00:24:50.082
just gonna lie around and feel sorry for myself and and you know not get my

00:24:50.082 --> 00:24:55.342
rounds in uh like it's it's better i think to like push yourself through those

00:24:55.342 --> 00:24:58.402
bad rounds like within reason obviously you don't want to hurt yourself or over

00:24:58.402 --> 00:25:01.382
train but the same thing with writing where like you don't want to overwork

00:25:01.382 --> 00:25:05.442
yourself but like you want to like keep yourself on a schedule.

00:25:05.622 --> 00:25:08.102
Otherwise, it becomes way too easy to keep making excuses.

00:25:08.282 --> 00:25:10.842
The same way you'll see students come into the gym and be like,

00:25:10.962 --> 00:25:13.002
oh, like, I'll just skip this one practice.

00:25:13.142 --> 00:25:15.502
And then skipping one practice turns into skipping two practices,

00:25:15.682 --> 00:25:17.042
turns into skipping three practices.

00:25:17.462 --> 00:25:20.142
You telling yourself, oh, I'm not going to like make word count today.

00:25:20.242 --> 00:25:23.342
I'm not going to like, you know, I'm just going to push off this deadline or

00:25:23.342 --> 00:25:26.762
do this on a on a different day turns into like, oh, like the next day,

00:25:26.842 --> 00:25:27.662
I'm not going to do it either.

00:25:27.782 --> 00:25:30.522
And then suddenly you're scrambling at the last minute to get everything done.

00:25:30.742 --> 00:25:33.482
The same way you're like, oh, no, I haven't done any threat for

00:25:33.482 --> 00:25:36.542
this tournament and now i've got like a week to cram in

00:25:36.542 --> 00:25:39.422
like my game planning and get my body and conditioned and

00:25:39.422 --> 00:25:42.222
all that and that never feels good so i think in that

00:25:42.222 --> 00:25:47.402
sense it's the the two can definitely be compared do you have to like manage

00:25:47.402 --> 00:25:52.002
your weekly calendar to say i'm gonna you block off like two or three hours

00:25:52.002 --> 00:25:55.742
a day or whatever like i gotta produce x number of words or something like that

00:25:55.742 --> 00:26:01.022
yeah typically yeah um usually when i'm closer to deadline so if i'm the closer I get to deadline,

00:26:01.202 --> 00:26:05.162
the more regimented I become about producing a certain word count every day.

00:26:05.662 --> 00:26:08.982
The further off, the more wiggle room I allow in. Like I might,

00:26:09.302 --> 00:26:12.222
there are some weeks where I'm like, okay, I need to hit like 1,000,

00:26:12.302 --> 00:26:14.782
2,000 words a day or less or more.

00:26:15.022 --> 00:26:18.542
And then there are some weeks where I'll be like, okay, I need to get this chapter

00:26:18.542 --> 00:26:20.002
done by the end of the week.

00:26:20.102 --> 00:26:22.642
It can happen whenever, it just needs to happen by the end of the week.

00:26:22.722 --> 00:26:24.362
So it's like a slightly looser schedule.

00:26:24.722 --> 00:26:28.162
And I can work that around like my training, my other obligations and all of that.

00:26:28.802 --> 00:26:32.862
But usually what informs my schedule is how pressing the task at hand is.

00:26:33.584 --> 00:26:37.404
Imagine doing that. Imagine like having to write like 2,000 words and then go teach what you can.

00:26:38.304 --> 00:26:41.584
I have had two days in fact. I know who you're doing. Yeah. And I like,

00:26:41.704 --> 00:26:45.704
and because I, my writing schedule sort of fits around my training schedule and vice versa.

00:26:45.884 --> 00:26:49.884
I do keep that in mind when I'm like blocking out like my writing schedule and

00:26:49.884 --> 00:26:52.344
my plan for getting a book done as well, where I'm like, okay,

00:26:52.344 --> 00:26:56.564
if I have to write like 2,000, 3,000 words, I'm going to schedule that for maybe

00:26:56.564 --> 00:27:00.124
like a Friday, which is usually my rest day for jujitsu and for lifting.

00:27:00.124 --> 00:27:03.544
Rather than like a Thursday where I know I'm like, okay, I have to teach noon

00:27:03.544 --> 00:27:07.204
class and then I have to teach the kids at 4.15 and then I have to come to your

00:27:07.204 --> 00:27:10.284
class and trade and then I have to go to Mark's class and trade again.

00:27:10.444 --> 00:27:14.484
And before I know it, I've lost like five hours on hard physical and mental activity.

00:27:15.124 --> 00:27:18.964
Yeah, yeah. And like, I'm like, I'm just not going to have the juice to produce

00:27:18.964 --> 00:27:20.604
a ton of writing. I can get a little done.

00:27:20.744 --> 00:27:24.804
I can maybe outline a few things, get some admin done. But I know myself and

00:27:24.804 --> 00:27:28.524
I know that I'm just not going to have the mental energy for like a ton of creative output.

00:27:28.804 --> 00:27:32.364
So I'll have to like, Be a little gentler with myself in terms of,

00:27:32.444 --> 00:27:36.024
like, what I schedule for myself for writing output on a day like that with,

00:27:36.104 --> 00:27:37.884
like, a lot of hard training and a lot of teaching.

00:27:38.224 --> 00:27:40.464
And then on a day where it's like, okay, only, like, I'm teaching,

00:27:40.484 --> 00:27:43.844
like, maybe one private and, like, I have, like, one class that I'm taking.

00:27:43.844 --> 00:27:46.124
I'm not doing, like, a super heavy lift.

00:27:46.904 --> 00:27:49.704
Okay, I have a few more hours in the day. I'm going to be less tired.

00:27:49.704 --> 00:27:52.244
I can probably bang out, like, a higher word count and just,

00:27:52.344 --> 00:27:53.444
like, really dialing in there.

00:27:53.624 --> 00:27:57.304
So it's always a balancing act is you know better than most.

00:27:58.664 --> 00:28:01.664
Do you like daytime? Do you write during the day? Or are you like a night owl?

00:28:02.264 --> 00:28:06.404
I am naturally a bit more of a night owl, but I do force myself to write during

00:28:06.404 --> 00:28:07.704
the day if I know that I'm going to be busy.

00:28:07.973 --> 00:28:10.653
The evening so again it turns into that thing where it's

00:28:10.653 --> 00:28:13.533
like we all have our preferences we have those days where we like we don't feel

00:28:13.533 --> 00:28:16.293
like training or we don't feel like getting the lift in but you kind of have

00:28:16.293 --> 00:28:19.653
to do it anyway because you're an adult and you're beholden

00:28:19.653 --> 00:28:22.413
to like other obligations in your schedule so there are days where i'm like

00:28:22.413 --> 00:28:25.833
i would rather just get this done like in the evening after i've had dinner

00:28:25.833 --> 00:28:29.393
but in the evening after i've had dinner like i have these other things that

00:28:29.393 --> 00:28:32.913
i need to go and do like i have an event that i have to host at a bookstore

00:28:32.913 --> 00:28:36.753
or Like I know that I'm going to be training super late in the evening.

00:28:36.933 --> 00:28:39.813
Maybe I'm covering like somebody's 7 p.m., 8 p.m. class.

00:28:39.973 --> 00:28:42.933
And then by the time that's done, I'm eating late dinner, showering.

00:28:43.073 --> 00:28:45.693
I'm not going to have that many hours left in the day before I have to go to bed.

00:28:45.853 --> 00:28:49.593
And then I'm like, OK, well, then I have to just kind of tell myself tough luck, Andrea.

00:28:49.593 --> 00:28:52.513
Like you're gonna you're gonna just have to get this done like in

00:28:52.513 --> 00:28:55.473
the afternoon like because you're you know you're not gonna have time or energy later

00:28:55.473 --> 00:28:58.693
on so so again it there there

00:28:58.693 --> 00:29:01.533
is some some self-discipline continues to

00:29:01.533 --> 00:29:05.573
be like an ongoing exercise and a skill but i think we're we're all constantly

00:29:05.573 --> 00:29:09.833
yeah we're all we're all fighting to develop when like and i'm not perfect either

00:29:09.833 --> 00:29:13.093
there are days where i just kind of let it go and you know it ends up just not

00:29:13.093 --> 00:29:16.913
being as productive as i want it to be um but you know we're always working

00:29:16.913 --> 00:29:19.153
to improve right the same way we were on that. Correct.

00:29:19.553 --> 00:29:22.593
And it definitely seems like you're like, maybe this is like part of,

00:29:22.673 --> 00:29:25.973
you can tell us I suppose, it seems like it's probably one of the business obligations

00:29:25.973 --> 00:29:29.293
of the publishing companies you work with, but you seem like you have to go

00:29:29.293 --> 00:29:31.013
to a lot of events too. Yeah, yeah.

00:29:31.353 --> 00:29:33.713
To promote, youth book signings, all that. For sure, for sure.

00:29:33.873 --> 00:29:39.753
I mean like, you can say no, but it's like, it's, I personally think it's important

00:29:39.753 --> 00:29:44.433
to show up and to like put yourself out there, like it is good for just networking and growing your brand.

00:29:45.026 --> 00:29:48.206
And like forming relationships also with bookstores in the area.

00:29:49.366 --> 00:29:52.526
Because like when you're working with a traditional publisher,

00:29:52.686 --> 00:29:56.566
especially a big one like Penguin, you will have a publicist who will help you

00:29:56.566 --> 00:29:59.246
out where they can, but you got to give them something, right?

00:29:59.426 --> 00:30:02.946
Like if your publicist is like, hey, do you want to go do these events?

00:30:02.986 --> 00:30:03.786
And you're just like, no.

00:30:04.006 --> 00:30:07.606
Every time eventually your publicist, they've got like 30 other offers they've

00:30:07.606 --> 00:30:09.106
got to promote. They're going to give up on you.

00:30:09.306 --> 00:30:13.026
Like the same way, again, here's another jujitsu metaphor.

00:30:13.026 --> 00:30:15.926
The same way like you can teach

00:30:15.926 --> 00:30:18.946
your students right Scott as a coach like you can show up and you

00:30:18.946 --> 00:30:21.746
can help them perfect their jujitsu but if they keep

00:30:21.746 --> 00:30:24.566
on skipping class and they're not doing the effort you couldn't like there's

00:30:24.566 --> 00:30:27.306
only so much you can do as an instructor right there's only

00:30:27.306 --> 00:30:30.086
so much a publicist is going to be able and willing to

00:30:30.086 --> 00:30:33.326
do for someone whose heart is clearly not in promoting their

00:30:33.326 --> 00:30:36.126
work so you as the author also have to be

00:30:36.126 --> 00:30:38.926
somewhat self-motivated in that respect and like

00:30:38.926 --> 00:30:41.766
different writers will have different comfort levels with that kind of thing

00:30:41.766 --> 00:30:44.786
um some are obviously sticking true

00:30:44.786 --> 00:30:47.746
to stereotype very introverted and kind of want to minimize the public

00:30:47.746 --> 00:30:50.426
facing stuff and like there's there's a way to do

00:30:50.426 --> 00:30:53.146
that like you can do more work online instead where you're

00:30:53.146 --> 00:30:55.926
where you're not like around the crowds as much

00:30:55.926 --> 00:30:58.726
um but somebody like me i kind of like i

00:30:58.726 --> 00:31:01.586
do kind of like being public facing i like people i like talking

00:31:01.586 --> 00:31:04.466
to folks um so i'm a little bit more willing to do that and

00:31:04.466 --> 00:31:07.266
i've formed a lot of really great relationships as a result of

00:31:07.266 --> 00:31:12.446
it so um yeah yeah sometimes it's inconveniently scheduled but i but i feel

00:31:12.446 --> 00:31:16.146
like it's a small price price to pay for it's your professional and if you want

00:31:16.146 --> 00:31:18.966
professional you have to kind of you have to go all in yeah yeah the same way

00:31:18.966 --> 00:31:22.126
you go to your business conferences as well that's right you've got to go all

00:31:22.126 --> 00:31:26.526
in yeah right where it's like maybe it's not mandatory but it's a good idea to go.

00:31:27.366 --> 00:31:35.346
I get it yeah it's the i think professionalism is kind of a rare thing from people when you,

00:31:36.141 --> 00:31:38.661
I mean, I've seen professionals in quotes who aren't professional,

00:31:39.541 --> 00:31:41.681
just generally speaking.

00:31:43.121 --> 00:31:46.921
And yeah, I think it's a good thing. I think you should do it.

00:31:47.221 --> 00:31:53.581
I think it speaks to the, like you said, like if Penguin or whoever has dozens,

00:31:53.801 --> 00:31:58.121
if not hundreds of other people they can choose to work with. It's a company that can.

00:31:59.381 --> 00:32:03.061
Why would they want to work with you? Right, right. If you're not doing some

00:32:03.061 --> 00:32:04.941
of the extra things. Yeah. It's a business.

00:32:05.261 --> 00:32:09.881
Yeah, totally. I aim to make myself easy to work with because I feel like it's

00:32:09.881 --> 00:32:13.201
like I think there's a saying where it's like you can have like talent,

00:32:13.241 --> 00:32:17.641
you can be good to work with and you can be reliable. But it's hard to find

00:32:17.641 --> 00:32:19.341
somebody who has like all three things.

00:32:19.521 --> 00:32:23.161
So as much as possible, sometimes the other factors are harder to control.

00:32:23.361 --> 00:32:26.221
But being easy to work with, I think, is something that anybody can control.

00:32:26.401 --> 00:32:29.621
So that's the one that I think that you should dial it on if possible.

00:32:29.621 --> 00:32:35.401
Well, I imagine from your audience,

00:32:35.801 --> 00:32:40.221
they're going to prefer someone that they can put the name to and they feel

00:32:40.221 --> 00:32:45.381
more attached to and they're more likely to want to purchase your books.

00:32:45.581 --> 00:32:49.001
Right. They're going to feel a connection with you if they can put the face

00:32:49.001 --> 00:32:51.861
and the name or feel like, oh, this person actually cares about.

00:32:52.021 --> 00:32:54.141
Totally. You get a book, she shows up to the store.

00:32:54.581 --> 00:32:57.621
Right. You do the events, you do the signings, all that. Yeah.

00:32:58.041 --> 00:33:01.661
So the more connected, I mean, anybody in the thing, whatever they're looking

00:33:01.661 --> 00:33:04.301
to get, whatever they're looking to buy, I mean, the more connected someone

00:33:04.301 --> 00:33:07.081
is to the person who's providing that, the more likely they're.

00:33:07.703 --> 00:33:11.843
Yes. Yeah. No, absolutely. Are you doing any writing for BJJ Mental Models?

00:33:13.043 --> 00:33:19.203
So I do writing in the sense that I prepare research for each of the episodes that I do.

00:33:19.323 --> 00:33:23.083
I currently run a show for them called BJJ Today, which is their news and culture

00:33:23.083 --> 00:33:27.003
podcast on Steve Kwan, the guy who runs the whole operation.

00:33:27.003 --> 00:33:32.403
He has like a bunch of like sort of sub podcasts alongside the main product.

00:33:32.523 --> 00:33:34.143
So that's that's the branch that I run.

00:33:34.723 --> 00:33:38.543
So I don't do a ton, a ton of, like, writing that goes onto,

00:33:38.543 --> 00:33:40.403
like, the website or into the product itself.

00:33:41.223 --> 00:33:44.803
But I do like a decent amount to plan out, like, interviews with the athlete

00:33:44.803 --> 00:33:48.963
of the week or the person of the week that I'm chatting with on an episode.

00:33:49.143 --> 00:33:51.823
That's probably a good break for you. You don't have to write. Yeah.

00:33:52.043 --> 00:33:54.863
You just organize yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:33:55.303 --> 00:34:00.723
I get it. I'm going to just for—just in case there's people on ours that don't

00:34:00.723 --> 00:34:04.083
also listen to yours without the crossover. Or do you want to explain like the

00:34:04.083 --> 00:34:07.323
premise of your show kind of what? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:34:07.663 --> 00:34:13.223
So BJJ Today is a news and culture podcast that's available on BJJ Mental Models Premium.

00:34:13.963 --> 00:34:19.263
So it is technically behind a paywall, but Steve also offers a free week-long

00:34:19.263 --> 00:34:21.903
try for folks to just try out the premium content.

00:34:22.263 --> 00:34:26.143
And because it's like the news and culture arm of that podcast,

00:34:26.143 --> 00:34:29.703
it focuses more on current events in jujitsu, cultural developments.

00:34:30.403 --> 00:34:34.723
We talk a lot to athletes who have big upcoming tournaments.

00:34:35.043 --> 00:34:38.983
We talked to, for example, Marcelo Garcia before he made his one championship debut.

00:34:39.303 --> 00:34:45.143
We talked to Adele Fornirino after she swept ADCC in the women's divisions past year.

00:34:46.163 --> 00:34:50.543
So there's a lot more of that focus versus the rest of BJJ Mental Models,

00:34:50.603 --> 00:34:54.743
which is much more focused on audio instructionals and, as you might guess from

00:34:54.743 --> 00:34:58.023
the name, developing effective mental models for training jiu-jitsu.

00:34:58.023 --> 00:35:01.023
So there's like a much more instructive bent to

00:35:01.023 --> 00:35:04.103
the rest of the podcast versus my show which

00:35:04.103 --> 00:35:07.083
is more about like what is currently happening

00:35:07.083 --> 00:35:09.963
in the world of grappling it's very cool yeah

00:35:09.963 --> 00:35:12.763
so they would have to they need to sign

00:35:12.763 --> 00:35:16.363
up for bjj mental models yes to access bjj

00:35:16.363 --> 00:35:19.783
today yep go to the website yeah go to the website put a

00:35:19.783 --> 00:35:22.483
a link or something in the show notes so that

00:35:22.483 --> 00:35:25.463
people can find it and you know hopefully yeah yeah

00:35:25.463 --> 00:35:28.503
no absolutely so is it are the

00:35:28.503 --> 00:35:31.383
episodes like do you do keep them very organized yeah they're

00:35:31.383 --> 00:35:34.203
pretty well there's like a little section on the website that has all the episodes

00:35:34.203 --> 00:35:38.463
that you can listen to in whatever order you want so okay and do you have like

00:35:38.463 --> 00:35:43.243
a so you have guests on but do you have like little segments you're like all

00:35:43.243 --> 00:35:45.743
right we're breaking down it's like and i'm picturing andrew is like on like

00:35:45.743 --> 00:35:49.023
a news like and she's got a car, she's like, all right, well,

00:35:49.223 --> 00:35:51.583
today, J-Rod got kinked off of BTS.

00:35:53.623 --> 00:35:57.923
Let's do 10 minutes on that. You know, what's the scandal? And then you sort of...

00:35:58.647 --> 00:36:03.867
That was a pretty wild story. I don't even know what really happened. It seems like news.

00:36:04.407 --> 00:36:07.487
Maybe that's more culture. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that may...

00:36:07.487 --> 00:36:10.427
Are these subjects that, like... I think that is both news and culture.

00:36:10.807 --> 00:36:16.587
Yeah, I agree. I would agree. Well, I've seen... I mean, you used to do...

00:36:16.587 --> 00:36:18.707
What was the other program you worked on?

00:36:18.747 --> 00:36:21.547
I used to write for the Jiu-Jitsu Times when they were around.

00:36:21.767 --> 00:36:23.727
You guys did some podcasts over there, too, right?

00:36:24.527 --> 00:36:28.567
I think that might have been before my time. I think some of my colleagues ran

00:36:28.567 --> 00:36:31.307
a podcast for them that I did listen to. It was really good.

00:36:31.907 --> 00:36:39.307
But I was never a part of that. My first foray into podcasting has been through BJJ Mental Models.

00:36:39.407 --> 00:36:42.687
But I did write for Jiu-Jitsu Times for a really long time. I helped run the site.

00:36:43.987 --> 00:36:46.747
But, yeah, that was actually a really great introduction to,

00:36:46.747 --> 00:36:50.967
like, kind of just the world of Jiu-Jitsu content, either written or audio to begin with.

00:36:51.107 --> 00:36:55.607
And developing, I think, like, the storytelling skill within the context of

00:36:55.607 --> 00:36:59.227
a combat sport. Because like I knew how to write already, obviously,

00:36:59.287 --> 00:37:00.267
because of my profession.

00:37:01.087 --> 00:37:06.347
But I was not a trained journalist. Like I hadn't I hadn't done the work that

00:37:06.347 --> 00:37:09.967
somebody coming out of like, say, NPR or WACO would have.

00:37:10.107 --> 00:37:14.527
Like I was not a formally trained reporter. I was a novelist who had done some

00:37:14.527 --> 00:37:15.587
corporate content writing.

00:37:16.167 --> 00:37:20.127
So that was like a skill that I did have to kind of pick up from other folks

00:37:20.127 --> 00:37:22.827
who had been around the combat sports scene for a while.

00:37:23.007 --> 00:37:25.087
And it was one that I really enjoyed developing.

00:37:25.347 --> 00:37:28.407
Like I do, I think like the through line and all of the work that I do is that

00:37:28.407 --> 00:37:29.607
I do just love storytelling.

00:37:30.607 --> 00:37:34.947
And I love jujitsu. I love martial arts. So it was a really great way to kind of apply that passion.

00:37:35.627 --> 00:37:39.507
Who's the most interesting person you've interviewed? Oh, that's such a hard question. Yeah.

00:37:40.187 --> 00:37:43.527
We'd have known it was coming. Oh, my goodness. We do a top three of more.

00:37:43.847 --> 00:37:47.287
Oh. Oh, I'm not going to do that.

00:37:47.567 --> 00:37:54.467
I mean, I did talk to J-Rod pre-disgrace and he was a good interview.

00:37:54.827 --> 00:37:57.627
Pre-disgrace. I bet that dude's interesting to talk to. He is. He is.

00:37:57.687 --> 00:38:03.147
It was it was in the era of him kind of like coming up in in the wake of his brother's success.

00:38:03.507 --> 00:38:10.207
So it was like after he I think he had gone and buggy choked a bunch of people at like 80cc Craddle.

00:38:10.327 --> 00:38:13.367
So that was that was an interesting interview. it's unfortunate like the

00:38:13.367 --> 00:38:18.727
the events that have unfolded since yeah um product

00:38:18.727 --> 00:38:21.987
of a of a perhaps problematic culture

00:38:21.987 --> 00:38:26.327
that continues to to shift and change and hopefully will try to fix itself eventually

00:38:26.327 --> 00:38:30.747
but yeah no i mean that was an interesting interview i did who else have i talked

00:38:30.747 --> 00:38:34.007
to that's really interesting i mean adele fornerino obviously like coming right

00:38:34.007 --> 00:38:39.767
off of that lynn out of adcc was fantastic um she's i what was fun about that

00:38:39.767 --> 00:38:41.867
was that i got to talk to both her and for a coach.

00:38:41.987 --> 00:38:45.487
So it was really interesting getting both like the athlete and the sort of mentoring

00:38:45.487 --> 00:38:46.967
perspective on that front.

00:38:47.587 --> 00:38:49.747
Because Scott, I'm sure, well, actually both of you, really,

00:38:49.847 --> 00:38:52.707
you both coach as well as compete. So like it.

00:38:53.435 --> 00:38:58.775
I'm sure that you have your own perspectives on what it's like to be the person

00:38:58.775 --> 00:39:01.355
sitting in the coroner's chair versus the person on the mat.

00:39:01.515 --> 00:39:05.195
And both can be very stressful and have very high stakes in different ways.

00:39:06.095 --> 00:39:08.855
And so it was interesting hearing both sides of that equation,

00:39:08.895 --> 00:39:11.275
especially on a stage as big as ABCC Worlds.

00:39:11.835 --> 00:39:14.235
So, yeah, no, she and her coach were a fantastic interview.

00:39:15.815 --> 00:39:18.155
Who else have I talked to that I really love chatting about?

00:39:18.235 --> 00:39:23.155
Obviously, Marcello was, I mean, you can't not have a good interview with Marcello.

00:39:23.155 --> 00:39:25.695
He's so personable. He has such a wealth of knowledge.

00:39:26.335 --> 00:39:30.635
I think there was something really meaningful also about getting to talk to

00:39:30.635 --> 00:39:34.755
him coming back to competition for the first time after that stomach cancer

00:39:34.755 --> 00:39:38.075
diagnosis and talking about that journey that he had as well.

00:39:38.275 --> 00:39:42.675
Just, you know, even beyond the sport of jiu-jitsu, that's like a very human story.

00:39:43.375 --> 00:39:47.615
So that was like, I think that was like a really emotional conversation as well.

00:39:49.035 --> 00:39:51.795
Um who else who else i've talked to so

00:39:51.795 --> 00:39:55.375
many interesting people it's hard to um jazari matuda

00:39:55.375 --> 00:39:58.295
was one of my first interviews with the jujitsu times that

00:39:58.295 --> 00:40:03.355
was she was a you know a trail blazer for women in jujitsu she had really interesting

00:40:03.355 --> 00:40:07.275
things to say i think that was one of my first like really great long form pieces

00:40:07.275 --> 00:40:11.895
i think i'm going way over like three people now whatever uh yeah like recently

00:40:11.895 --> 00:40:16.295
yeah like this this episode isn't out yet but i recently We did an interview with Sarah McMahon,

00:40:16.795 --> 00:40:18.875
you know, women's wrestling Olympian.

00:40:19.115 --> 00:40:22.655
Again, like real, real trailblazer for women in combat sports.

00:40:22.835 --> 00:40:26.075
So hearing her perspective on the growth of jujitsu,

00:40:26.195 --> 00:40:30.775
the growth of women's wrestling in the U.S., the way that jujitsu and wrestling

00:40:30.775 --> 00:40:35.395
and MMA have all kind of started converging under almost under one umbrella

00:40:35.395 --> 00:40:38.455
where we're doing a lot more cross training than we used to between the sports

00:40:38.455 --> 00:40:42.135
is also really interesting to hear from her perspective as somebody who has

00:40:42.135 --> 00:40:44.715
coached and competed in all three. So,

00:40:45.351 --> 00:40:48.511
Yeah, no, I feel like I've been really fortunate in that I've really gotten

00:40:48.511 --> 00:40:50.691
to talk to some fascinating folks in the sport.

00:40:50.771 --> 00:40:53.451
On the non-athlete side, oh, this is a name that I had to drop,

00:40:54.091 --> 00:40:57.191
Chhatri Sitchatong, who runs One Championship itself.

00:40:57.611 --> 00:41:02.651
That was also a cool interview because it was, I feel like it's great hearing

00:41:02.651 --> 00:41:03.811
from athletes, obviously.

00:41:04.631 --> 00:41:08.511
But it's a whole different conversation hearing from somebody who has to also

00:41:08.511 --> 00:41:12.271
do the behind-the-scenes work to build the product and handle the financials.

00:41:12.271 --> 00:41:15.271
Um so it's fascinating just getting that perspective as

00:41:15.271 --> 00:41:20.291
well so so talking to the did he talk about like having to deal with like tough

00:41:20.291 --> 00:41:24.271
personalities at all because that's got to be 90 of what he does yeah i mean

00:41:24.271 --> 00:41:29.771
he talked a lot i think about like why he's so passionate about building the

00:41:29.771 --> 00:41:33.411
submission grappling product at one specifically and what he was looking to do there.

00:41:34.291 --> 00:41:37.091
Um and like the challenge of that because like kind of

00:41:37.091 --> 00:41:40.151
hearkening back to what we were talking about earlier on this episode here

00:41:40.151 --> 00:41:42.891
in this room um we talked about the

00:41:42.891 --> 00:41:46.031
the stress of having to be entertaining for an audience when you're

00:41:46.031 --> 00:41:49.211
the ceo of a fight promotion you really

00:41:49.211 --> 00:41:52.211
have to find ways to entertain your audience that is like your

00:41:52.211 --> 00:41:58.071
your your what arguably your main job um and so talking to him about his thought

00:41:58.071 --> 00:42:02.471
process in terms of picking athletes that he knows will put on a good show finding

00:42:02.471 --> 00:42:06.391
the right matchmakers for them finding the right rule set that will encourage

00:42:06.391 --> 00:42:10.751
them to go off and and kind of like put their craft on display in a way that's

00:42:10.751 --> 00:42:12.011
going to bring in new fans,

00:42:12.751 --> 00:42:15.931
to the sport that was that was a really interesting conversation

00:42:15.931 --> 00:42:18.971
he talked a little bit less about like difficult personalities and

00:42:18.971 --> 00:42:23.131
more about like diplomatic man yeah he's a very diplomatic man he's been a high

00:42:23.131 --> 00:42:27.191
level businessman for a long time but we did chat quite a bit about like how

00:42:27.191 --> 00:42:32.011
he picks his athletes um and that there's there is like it's not enough to just

00:42:32.011 --> 00:42:36.091
be like good at winning in jiu-jitsu or in MMA or what have you.

00:42:36.351 --> 00:42:40.291
Like there, there are particular qualities that he's looking for when he's looking to sell his product.

00:42:40.691 --> 00:42:44.871
So that was definitely an interesting conversation to have. I wonder if you'd

00:42:44.871 --> 00:42:48.551
be willing to talk about working with the, uh, the mafia in Asia.

00:42:53.531 --> 00:42:58.551
There's no way that in, in combat sports in Asia, as long as he's been there and successful,

00:42:59.980 --> 00:43:02.720
really interesting cross paths yeah no it was

00:43:02.720 --> 00:43:05.560
definitely both yeah dwight talked about it's

00:43:05.560 --> 00:43:08.440
why they like basically the whole thing

00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:13.720
ended up dissolving pride because to run because of yakuza involvement right

00:43:13.720 --> 00:43:17.480
yeah i remember that's great you know what i will just pull out of this and

00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:20.960
then they ended up opening i forget which one yeah the yakuza ended up basically

00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:24.720
rebooting it as something else but i'm sure he's got plenty of experience with

00:43:24.720 --> 00:43:28.020
the mafia in vegas that he's like Like, I've got an answer.

00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:35.440
Just intercontinental mafia stuff. Right. I can only advantage one mafia to two. Right, right.

00:43:35.720 --> 00:43:39.520
You can only multitask so much. Well, you don't need a translator for the one in being.

00:43:40.220 --> 00:43:43.900
So you have a team for the deal with. Sure. Sure. Yeah.

00:43:44.500 --> 00:43:50.920
Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. So folks like Chachvi, some of the folks who run Iridium Sports Agency,

00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:54.320
which represents a lot of the UFC fighters also, hearing stuff

00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:57.260
from like the agent's perspective is also really interesting because again

00:43:57.260 --> 00:44:00.240
it's the that business side to the sport so that's

00:44:00.240 --> 00:44:03.180
also i think just the a story that we don't often hear

00:44:03.180 --> 00:44:06.200
we wonder about it a lot i think but we we don't often hear

00:44:06.200 --> 00:44:09.000
from from the folks behind the athlete i think

00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:12.460
a lot of people that like the spectators

00:44:12.460 --> 00:44:15.640
of people watching the sport don't realize like it's not

00:44:15.640 --> 00:44:18.800
just i don't think they like you're kind of hinting

00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:21.960
at they don't realize how much there is beyond just yeah yeah

00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:24.940
there's a fight is in too yeah absolutely there's

00:44:24.940 --> 00:44:29.220
there's a whole team behind an athlete and yeah and not just on the physical

00:44:29.220 --> 00:44:32.440
side obviously on the physical side you've got the coach you've got you know

00:44:32.440 --> 00:44:36.280
personal trainers dietitians all of that there's also like a whole business

00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:40.100
team behind a high level a sufficiently high level athlete with a big profile

00:44:40.100 --> 00:44:44.060
some of them can use slightly larger business teams sometimes i think so i think so,

00:44:45.200 --> 00:44:46.960
on the public view. Right.

00:44:47.600 --> 00:44:50.360
Some of them you could use a good publicist. Yeah.

00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.840
For sure. Some of them we don't want to have good publicists.

00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:56.480
We want to just let them go rage. Right.

00:44:56.840 --> 00:45:00.060
You need a couple of those. Some of those guys are like, hey man,

00:45:00.120 --> 00:45:03.160
you might have a slightly more successful career.

00:45:03.380 --> 00:45:05.620
Right. I'm like, what this person is trying not to say.

00:45:07.160 --> 00:45:11.120
Just stick to the talking points and you'll probably have a better time. Yeah.

00:45:12.060 --> 00:45:16.060
How about this? as an athlete, as a student, Andrea, what do you want to work on?

00:45:16.240 --> 00:45:20.660
What's the next big journey you want? Ah, in jujitsu in general?

00:45:21.260 --> 00:45:24.240
What else? What's the... Yeah, we can do jujitsu, we can do whatever.

00:45:24.560 --> 00:45:26.720
Yeah, yeah, I mean like... Jiu-jitsuing and riding.

00:45:27.220 --> 00:45:30.940
I think like, I mean, in terms of jujitsu, I think it's kind of like a double

00:45:30.940 --> 00:45:34.240
path for me where like I do want to be the best competitor I can.

00:45:34.460 --> 00:45:38.140
Like I, back in 2023, I was able to take home,

00:45:38.843 --> 00:45:42.923
a handful of major titles. I'd say so. Yeah, American Nationals,

00:45:43.083 --> 00:45:46.103
Euros, and Pans in Nogi for my division.

00:45:46.603 --> 00:45:49.823
And I came up short at Worlds, and I still want that world title.

00:45:51.623 --> 00:45:56.543
And yeah, there is definitely the hunger for that, especially after seeing our

00:45:56.543 --> 00:45:58.723
good friend The Doctor win that at Brownville.

00:45:59.503 --> 00:46:04.103
I would like to kind of complete that Grand Slam in my competitive career.

00:46:04.343 --> 00:46:05.943
The final Infinity Stone. Right? Right.

00:46:06.883 --> 00:46:13.963
And in terms of but like on the other side of it, I do I do want to be a good

00:46:13.963 --> 00:46:18.283
instructor and coach as well, which as again,

00:46:18.443 --> 00:46:22.183
as you both can speak to from your own perspectives is also its own skill.

00:46:22.463 --> 00:46:26.263
And so I do want to develop my teaching skills as well and get good at cornering,

00:46:26.303 --> 00:46:29.183
get good at coaching, get good at building really good athletes, too.

00:46:29.603 --> 00:46:34.103
So so that's that's kind of what I'm what I'm working toward here at DMA with

00:46:34.103 --> 00:46:39.823
Scott. Yeah, you're developing a stable of tougher females, too.

00:46:40.323 --> 00:46:43.363
It's always like we're working on it. For sure, for sure.

00:46:43.643 --> 00:46:46.603
That's somewhat selfish on my head as well.

00:46:46.683 --> 00:46:50.963
Because I also want to build good training partners for me. And that means toughening

00:46:50.963 --> 00:46:52.403
up a lot of the girls at DMA.

00:46:53.343 --> 00:46:56.463
I believe I'm currently the only female purple belt.

00:46:56.583 --> 00:47:00.963
So I've got this crop of blue belts where I'm like, okay, I need you guys to

00:47:00.963 --> 00:47:03.363
step up and give me some harm.

00:47:03.623 --> 00:47:07.163
So what's your strategy? Do you try to be as mean as possible and then see who

00:47:07.163 --> 00:47:09.763
rises to the occasion? Oh, it depends. It depends.

00:47:10.023 --> 00:47:16.163
I feel like it's very personality-dependent. Some folks, I can tell they need a bit of a jumper hand.

00:47:16.163 --> 00:47:21.003
Otherwise, they're going to crumble a little bit, and they kind of need to be

00:47:21.003 --> 00:47:25.203
slowly built up into somebody who could take the tougher love,

00:47:25.263 --> 00:47:27.963
so to speak. And some folks just want me to hold them really hard.

00:47:29.203 --> 00:47:32.243
They welcome that pressure. um and

00:47:32.243 --> 00:47:35.163
i do have to like i've i'm not going to name names but i have had

00:47:35.163 --> 00:47:38.023
conversations with a few of the women where i'm like i can

00:47:38.023 --> 00:47:41.983
tell that you're giving me a lot of respect when we roll and i need you to to

00:47:41.983 --> 00:47:46.163
not do that i need you to be a little meaner to me yeah hey you can get like

00:47:46.163 --> 00:47:50.383
you don't have to go easy on me right like like i was just like for both of

00:47:50.383 --> 00:47:53.923
our sakes i'm gonna need you to get a little more aggressive when we roll it's

00:47:53.923 --> 00:47:55.763
it's going to be good for both of our development.

00:47:56.203 --> 00:48:00.703
And I understand why you're hesitant to do that. But this is me verbally giving

00:48:00.703 --> 00:48:02.463
you permission to step on the brakes.

00:48:05.474 --> 00:48:09.914
Sorry, on the gas. Sorry, misspoke, misspoke. Step on the gas a little bit.

00:48:10.414 --> 00:48:13.514
The opposite of stepping on the brakes. I want you to stop stepping on the brakes.

00:48:13.514 --> 00:48:18.094
You're doing that too much. Let it fly. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. I understand.

00:48:18.854 --> 00:48:23.194
Yeah, good. We'll keep doing it. Obviously, beat them up until they can beat you up.

00:48:23.294 --> 00:48:26.854
Yeah, I mean, a lot of them are getting really, really good.

00:48:27.054 --> 00:48:29.554
It's been really exciting to see and to feel.

00:48:29.814 --> 00:48:34.594
There have been a few girls where sometimes I'll show them the counter to something that I like doing.

00:48:34.734 --> 00:48:37.314
And I don't kind of regret it like around later. I'm like, OK,

00:48:37.474 --> 00:48:43.414
well, now I'm not hitting that favorite move that I usually can hit on you like easy as anything.

00:48:43.714 --> 00:48:46.774
Now I have to revise my game as well. And there's a moment of like,

00:48:46.894 --> 00:48:51.194
oh, no, no, I kind of regret showing you the the keys to my castle.

00:48:51.334 --> 00:48:53.714
But then it's also like, OK, well, that's also making me better.

00:48:53.814 --> 00:48:57.114
Right. Because it's forcing me to improve my technique and to develop also.

00:48:57.114 --> 00:48:59.874
That's the job yeah that's the job the job is

00:48:59.874 --> 00:49:02.574
to give them everything that you know so i know it

00:49:02.574 --> 00:49:05.274
faster than you did yep yeah you'll get used to it

00:49:05.274 --> 00:49:09.174
yeah i understand yeah yeah

00:49:09.174 --> 00:49:12.014
yeah especially those girls who are like yeah because i'm

00:49:12.014 --> 00:49:15.134
yeah i moved up from 125 to 135 recently it's

00:49:15.134 --> 00:49:19.234
not like there are big strong girls they're like 165ers 155ers

00:49:19.234 --> 00:49:22.054
and i'm like yeah yeah you you you sharpen your

00:49:22.054 --> 00:49:24.754
technique just a little and you've got a lot of like weight and

00:49:24.754 --> 00:49:27.454
power and strength on your side so they are making me

00:49:27.454 --> 00:49:30.654
work a little more and there's that yeah yeah

00:49:30.654 --> 00:49:33.614
exactly exactly it's the way i imagine you guys probably feel

00:49:33.614 --> 00:49:36.454
when you're rolling with someone like shankin for example where it's

00:49:36.454 --> 00:49:39.534
just like okay i have given you all of this technique

00:49:39.534 --> 00:49:44.474
now and you are using the gig suite giant heavyweight man now using good technique

00:49:44.474 --> 00:49:48.554
on top of his existing physical attributes and you're you have that moment of

00:49:48.554 --> 00:49:52.394
like oh no what have i done but then it's like no no it's good for me it's good

00:49:52.394 --> 00:49:56.914
for me and it's good for you too the scariest thing in the room is a heavyweight the,

00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:01.280
Right, right. It just feels so unfair. Just the big deal.

00:50:03.520 --> 00:50:07.700
Yeah, yeah. I'm always suspicious whenever Shane falls back to guard or starts

00:50:07.700 --> 00:50:11.320
looking to entangle the legs. I'm like, all right, what are you cooking up, Shane?

00:50:11.520 --> 00:50:14.000
Or what have you got waiting for us? He told me, he's like, I think I'm going

00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:16.900
to start liking knee bars. I was like, oh. Oh, gosh.

00:50:18.020 --> 00:50:22.200
Two weeks ago, it's like he was just throwing knee balls. Yeah. Like all day.

00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.960
He's seen them everywhere now. Yeah. I don't know how I feel about that.

00:50:26.500 --> 00:50:30.360
Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess we're all going to have to prepare ourselves. Yeah.

00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:36.440
Be ready to tap fast. Yep. Awesome. Andrea, thank you. Thank you,

00:50:36.600 --> 00:50:38.220
guys. This was a lot of fun.

00:50:38.640 --> 00:50:39.800
Yeah, thanks for coming. Where

00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:46.340
can people find you? How can we support your writing? Oh, no, no, no.

00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:52.680
I am atangwrites on Instagram. That's A-T-A-N-G-W-R-I-T-E-S.

00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:54.420
So just spelled the way that it sounds.

00:50:54.660 --> 00:50:57.500
And that links to pretty much everything I've got. my offer

00:50:57.500 --> 00:51:00.620
website everything um and if you're interested in

00:51:00.620 --> 00:51:05.300
listening to bjj today you can trial a free trial with bjj mental models at

00:51:05.300 --> 00:51:09.800
bjj mental models.com hell yeah excellent we'll put all of those in the show

00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:13.540
notes for you guys so that you can you know you just copy and paste if you need

00:51:13.540 --> 00:51:18.220
to uh make it a little easier so you don't have to replay that over and over again right,

00:51:18.820 --> 00:51:21.620
so i'll make sure to have that for you guys and you know thank you

00:51:21.620 --> 00:51:25.360
for listening to fires drinking and coffee um as always

00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:28.580
you know how fun hit follow

00:51:28.580 --> 00:51:31.460
us on instagram i'm gonna stumble over my words

00:51:31.460 --> 00:51:34.280
for you guys um you know find us we

00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:37.200
have a discord so if you guys want to get in there we try to build this

00:51:37.200 --> 00:51:40.040
build up a little bit of community get people kind of interacting with each

00:51:40.040 --> 00:51:42.940
other um and with the show we're actually starting to pull

00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:45.880
some topic ideas from there too so like questions that

00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:48.900
people have we started using them um and like

00:51:48.900 --> 00:51:51.800
answer them on the show if they're too good to just answer on there

00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:55.900
um also like rate

00:51:55.900 --> 00:52:01.100
review those things all help us so when you go on like spotify that five star

00:52:01.100 --> 00:52:05.180
button that helps us in the algorithm um so that helps us get two more people's

00:52:05.180 --> 00:52:10.880
ears uh again we don't really care if you want to say bad things go for it just

00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:15.340
hit five stars give us a negative review and a positive star rating that's fine.

00:52:16.420 --> 00:52:19.820
But yeah any other things to add Scott?

00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:22.180
Nope. Alright. See ya. Bye. Alright. Bye.

00:52:23.500 --> 00:52:26.980
Alright. Thanks guys. Alright. See ya.